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Property owner hot head 
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Post Property owner hot head
I know we got into this topic once....I want to share last weekend....

I went to my usual shooting spot.... Rainbow Valley Rd and about 4 to 5 miles south of the SALT Riiver.

We (dad, brother, and others) have hunted doves there for the last 10 years. Nothing exciting for the doves, but we could slowly get the limit of 10.
It's also, our pistol, and target shooting spot.

Me and my 70 y.o. dad, sat in our field and was shooting the AR-15 :mrgreen: and new scope. This 60 y.o. guy pulls up next to us (we are in the middle of a old, old, cotton field....pretty much abandoned, and he says..."I don't shoot much."

I say.... "can I help you?"

He says, "you'll have to leave...... I own the property."
I say nicely..."oh okay, perhaps next time, you'll post it, to avoid troubles for others?"
He says..."I don't have too!" (now I know....he's in a bad mood) I say..."I know you don't but....perhaps..." etc.
I say...."okay, we'll leave."

He then, drives around us, almost runs over my shooting glasses, gets to the other side of our vehicle......"stops, and says....NOW!"

It's like the frick'n timer was apparently running! Apparently, in the 10 seconds he drove around us, we weren't moving fast enough.
I said, "yeah I told you we are leaving!" Now, of course this pisses off my dad... over 70...and the two of them get into an argument. This guy jumps out of his vehicle and goes face to face with my dad. I have to step betwen the two of them. I was shocked that this guy was so aggressive, especially when he knew we had guns on our tailgate!

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Last edited by elkoholic on Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:50 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
(part 2)

Now, I wait....Is this old guy gonna draw a gun? I was not too worried with my AR-15 loaded with 10 rounds, but I was certainly attentative.

After I calmed my dad, he walked away and finally old property guy walked away, then gets paper to write down my truck plate numbers (oh I'm scared!). So, I quickly threw all our ammo, tripod, gear into the truck and left his property.

I asked the guy before leaving...."your not from here, are you?".....he says...."yeah, 30 years." I said...." I have never been treated by anyone like you in Az, you jerk! And me and my dad have been here all our lives."

And then I asked.... "Can I go get my target?".... Oddly enough...he said "yes."

Just a weird experience, and we lived to talk about it. I told my dad, someone must have previously pissed him off. My dad was shocked I didn't kick his booty. I can be a hot-head! But, you never know when some idiot might have a weapon!

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Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:55 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
I definitely sympathize for you... He could have simply said you need to leave... Being nice about it would have been a plus... I know when I have hunted the more remote parts of Arizona like the Portal area in Cochise county all I would hear at the local watering hole was "if it's private property and it's not posted, go right ahead" , "just use your damn common sense and stay away from occupied structures"... I even had more than one rancher point me in the right direction on his land..

I think when it comes to dove hunting, I can never figure out what plots are OK to hunt on what are not... I certainly see a heck of a lot of hunters out on empty plots... But, the good news is I know of a lot of good desert hunting, So I don't need to go there..

And there are the landowners who simply close all access to public land... I think this state is getting bigger and bigger every year with more people... A lot less trust... But that may be because some land owners have had property damaged or destroyed.. Or simply some people are slobs and don't clean up after themselves...

It's ashame.. I wish we had more a culture of respect and consideration .... I think the old days in Arizona were more like that... More parental guidance also... I would think that most of us hunters would possess this respect... But, I can't say for sure we are all like that...

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Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:18 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
You weren't near the dairy were you?

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Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:58 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
You should have told him to rpove it was his property since it isnt marked......maybe he would have stroked out.......


Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:28 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
Oh that lovely topic of private property, I hate it. You never know if you're going to have peaceful conversation or deal with a dictator. I've had my share of run in's both here and in NM, to the point that I do what ever I can to avoid them, with one exception, where their land blocks entrance to public land, that's when I do what ever I can to make sure access remains, even if that means having it out with the land owner.

Glad to hear you got out of there ok.

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Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:34 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
Guys I sympathize, but the bottom line is none of you mentioned you made any effort to see who owned the lands you speak of and got permission...we can argue all day and night about what we used to do and no one ever said a thing, but how many of you have people pulling into your driveway and then pull out lawn chairs like they own it and have a BBQ in your yard because you didn't post it?

Regardless of how we feel, the bottom line is it is private property and it's not their responsibility to post jack squat....(unfortunately some courts have ruled they have to post it for prosecution reasons)... do you post your front lawn? If it ain't yours, ask...if you aren't sure who's it is, start knocking on doors, you will either get permission and a smile or sent down the road.

When I moved up here I was told you can't hunt the west hills any more and that the land owners are all jerks about it....I decided to call and ask some and with one exception everyone said go and have fun, just clean up your mess.

Was he a hot head? Or had he had enough run ins with others tresspassing (which is what it truely is) and your suggesting he post what is obviously private land may have triggered the response.

Sorry if you disagree, but look at it from both sides..JMHO :|

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Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:33 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
Not arguing, but Az has their laws for a reason. I know if I go to Colorado it's different.

My family has been farming from Safford to Buckeye, Ranching from Globe to Winkleman, I used to ranchhand on my cousins ranch in the summers during Highschool on 21000 acres of FS grazing lease. I know both sides.

You 'MUST' post the property... everyone knows it and the guy was either not the owner, just a worker, or someone not wanting others out there shooting. His claim of 30 yrs and 'he doesn't have to post' do not match.

In Az, if you are tired of people or have a trash problem, post it, call the Sheriff if someone violates it, simple. It is not Trespassing until posted. Those from other states may not understand it, but that's the way it is here.

No one is camping in a front yard. We are talking about raw or farrow farmland. The no discharging a firearm within 1/4 mile of an occupied building is also in play. All farmers that have been here know the rules more than anyone and claiming ignorance over their lawful responsibilities is a big BS red flag.

If someone comes up and claims landowner, asks me in a non confrontational manner to leave, I will, usually we will have a ok or friendly conversation as I talk the language and most the time told it was fine if I stayed. I was there legally, I was asked to leave so I will, unless I was accused of being there illegally I will not mention the 'No Posting'. If they come upset and accusing, I will make a point of reading them the law and if they want to push it, wait for the Sheriff, I've only had to do that once and I win in that situation.

This is a land use issue, not a land ownership issue, it may be unique to Az, but that's the way it is.

Kent


Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:01 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
See section D. In any event this does not mean that either party should be a jerk about it. Unfortunately rude and careless hunters/shooters have made it more difficult for the rest of us.

All states have different laws. In Kansas for instance, where I hunt often, hunting any land without permission, verbal or written, can lead to a citation by Fish&Wildlife and a major arse eating by the land owner. If the land is marked with purple paint it means that you must have written permission, in your possession. I had permission to hunt one man's ground one turkey season and I guess he changed his mind between the time I talked with him and when I came out to hunt, or he just had a bad day because I got one of the worst "eatings" I have every had. I took it and left. I found out later from a neighbor farmer that this guy had a habit of doing that. Lesson learned.

Arizona Revised Statutes:

17-304. Prohibition by landowner upon hunting; posting; exception

A. Landowners or lessees of private land who desire to prohibit hunting, fishing or trapping on their lands without their written permission shall post such lands closed to hunting, fishing or trapping using notices or signboards.

B. State or federal lands including those under lease may not be posted except by consent of the commission.

C. The notices or signboards shall meet all of the following criteria:

1. Be not less than eight inches by eleven inches with plainly legible wording in capital and bold-faced lettering at least one inch high.

2. Contain the words "no hunting", "no trapping" or "no fishing" either as a single phrase or in any combination.

3. Be conspicuously placed on a structure or post at least four feet above ground level at all points of vehicular access, at all property or fence corners and at intervals of not more than one-quarter mile along the property boundary, except that a post with one hundred square inches or more of orange paint may serve as the interval notices between property or fence corners and points of vehicular access. The orange paint shall be clearly visible and shall cover the entire aboveground surface of the post facing outward and on both lateral sides from the closed area.

D. The entry of any person for the taking of wildlife shall not be grounds for an action for trespassing unless the land has been posted pursuant to this section.

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Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:11 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
I see both sides of this and I agree the land owner could have approached it in a little different manner but the law that Lynn posted states "hunting" "fishing" or "trapping" Target shooting doesn't fall into any of those catagories. The land owner could of said I don't mind you dove hunting but I draw the line at target shooting and I "think" he would be in his rights. Note that I said "think" as I'm not positive here. IMHO Target Shooters have ruined a lot of nice hunting areas in this state and give hunters a bad name. I'm not saying that Elkoholic is one of those who leaves his trash and empties when he leaves but those of us who actually clean up after ourselves seem to be a minority.


Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:22 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
ac guy wrote:
You weren't near the dairy were you?


No. South of the, what appears to be a "closed" dairy now?

We were south of it, about 5 miles.

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Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:48 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
OB1 wrote:
Guys I sympathize, but the bottom line is none of you mentioned you made any effort to see who owned the lands you speak of and got permission...we can argue all day and night about what we used to do and no one ever said a thing, but how many of you have people pulling into your driveway and then pull out lawn chairs like they own it and have a BBQ in your yard because you didn't post it?

Regardless of how we feel, the bottom line is it is private property and it's not their responsibility to post jack squat....(unfortunately some courts have ruled they have to post it for prosecution reasons)... do you post your front lawn? If it ain't yours, ask...if you aren't sure who's it is, start knocking on doors, you will either get permission and a smile or sent down the road.

When I moved up here I was told you can't hunt the west hills any more and that the land owners are all jerks about it....I decided to call and ask some and with one exception everyone said go and have fun, just clean up your mess.

Was he a hot head? Or had he had enough run ins with others tresspassing (which is what it truely is) and your suggesting he post what is obviously private land may have triggered the response.

Sorry if you disagree, but look at it from both sides..JMHO :|


These days, it's all private land. It's dove hunting country. Property that has been farmed, every so often. It has been that way in Az for many, many years. My family has been here since the early 40's.

There is nothing around. I have hunting this property for over 10 years, and never had any issues. I have been asked to leave private property by very few farmers, which have all been nice about it. In fact, they usually know a place we can shoot.

I have never been asked to leave by a pissed off "investor."

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Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:55 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
Here you go. There are different types of trespass. This one relates.


Arizona Revised Statutes §13-1502 Criminal trespass in the third degree; classification


A. A person commits criminal trespass in the third degree by:

1. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on any real property after a reasonable request to leave by the owner or any other person having lawful control over such property, or reasonable notice prohibiting entry.

2. Knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on the right-of-way for tracks, or the storage or switching yards or rolling stock of a railroad company.

B. Criminal trespass in the third degree is a class 3 misdemeanor.






This one doesn't.

Arizona Revised Statutes §13-1504 Criminal trespass in the first degree; classification

A. A person commits criminal trespass in the first degree by knowingly:

1. Entering or remaining unlawfully in or on a residential structure.

2. Entering or remaining unlawfully in a fenced residential yard.

3. Entering any residential yard and, without lawful authority, looking into the residential structure thereon in reckless disregard of infringing on the inhabitant's right of privacy.

4. Entering unlawfully on real property that is subject to a valid mineral claim or lease with the intent to hold, work, take or explore for minerals on the claim or lease.

5. Entering or remaining unlawfully on the property of another and burning, defacing, mutilating or otherwise desecrating a religious symbol or other religious property of another without the express permission of the owner of the property.

6. Entering or remaining unlawfully in or on a critical public service facility.

B. Criminal trespass in the first degree under subsection A, paragraph 1, 5 or 6 is a class 6 felony. Criminal trespass in the first degree under subsection A, paragraph 2, 3 or 4 is a class 1 misdemeanor.

Kent


Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:11 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
It's not all in one basket when it comes to trespassing and that's the way it should be, it's up to the landowner to dictate by lawful signage as to his intent. You can not be arrested for trespass until you are asked to leave and refuse. As far as hunting/fishing you can not be arrested until it is posted.

Trash is a totally different subject and should be handled in an individual basis not with a broad brush. Most of us here would pick up our stuff and extra also. If a landowner has a problem... post the property and call the Sheriff.... simple.

Kent


Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:24 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
The "trash" deal was another issue.

At 100 yards....I used a nearby beer can to mark the distance. It was there to begin with!

Once I went after my target to pick it up, I looked back at where we were shooting....the old guy was picking up our "marker/beer can" and turned to us, to give us that dirty look. As if we left trash.

I didn't want to "take" his personal property! :mrgreen: (normally....If we see it.....we pick it up. Leave it better than when you showed up! I was raised by a great guy)

Oh forgot to add......2 minutes before "old guy" visits, we saw the vehicle approaching, my dad says....."maybe I should get my pistol".....

good thing he didn't ! ;) :o

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Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:35 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
'krp' wrote:
If a landowner has a problem... post the property and call the Sheriff.... simple.

Kent


I had an incident where there was a dump truck sized load of trash dumped in a much traveled road on my farm once. I called the MCSO, had the guy's name and address from paperwork that he left. I was told by the deputy they had better things to do than pursue someone dumping trash on private property. I asked him if it was illegal and he said yes but it didn't matter, they were going to do nothing.

I have no love for their policies.

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Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:41 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
Should have told him you had TV camera's coming - they would have showed up in force.


Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:52 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
creed wrote:
'krp' wrote:
If a landowner has a problem... post the property and call the Sheriff.... simple.

Kent


I had an incident where there was a dump truck sized load of trash dumped in a much traveled road on my farm once. I called the MCSO, had the guy's name and address from paperwork that he left. I was told by the deputy they had better things to do than pursue someone dumping trash on private property. I asked him if it was illegal and he said yes but it didn't matter, they were going to do nothing.

I have no love for their policies.


Now that is truly criminal, seems in life you get dumped on from all sides, even the ones that make their living supposedly protecting you.

Kent


Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:30 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
creed wrote:

I had an incident where there was a dump truck sized load of trash dumped in a much traveled road on my farm once. I called the MCSO, had the guy's name and address from paperwork that he left. I was told by the deputy they had better things to do than pursue someone dumping trash on private property. I asked him if it was illegal and he said yes but it didn't matter, they were going to do nothing.

I have no love for their policies.



I would have found out where that deputy lived and taken all that trash and dumped it in his driveway. Then I would have taped a note to his door that said "You said it didn't matter, so here you go"

What a A-HOLE!!

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Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:39 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
This has been some years ago but back in the days when I would draw the beats in the city that were more desert than urban I would spend my slow time digging through trash dumped in the desert to find paperwork that tied the trash to a person. You would be surprised how many cases the City Attorney filed from my trash diving. It can be done but the worthless deputy that showed up on that one should have been reported.

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Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:49 pm
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
Creed, I have and had no use for a lazy cop/deputy and if I had been his Sgt and known I would have fired his azz up, there's no excuse for poor customer service when thats what we pay for.

Guys, I don't give a hoot about what the ARS says, the statute is written that way to insure the person can be prosecuted and convicted, its not an open door policy for hunters...this isnt a matter of what a court of law will decide, this is what a court of common decency decides and how it relfects on us as hunters......the bottom line is you and I all know when we're going onto someone's farm as opposed to BLM or USFS or state lands...regardless of what the statute says they will prosecute, the land doesn't belong to you and you have a moral obligation to ask permission to be on someone elses property that they pay for to farm, that they pay the taxes on and that they pay to clean up. God only knows how many farmers I had complaining about empty hulls, wings and beer cans and bottles left after opening day. You have no idea how many times I've been called out and found the do not tresspass signs shot up and thrown into the fields or ditches...it aint about "he didn't post it, he didn't post it" its about respect and showing that we as hunters can do the right and moral thing and ask first. Again, all you guys seem to be echoing is that it's your right to go onto someone else's property anytime you want and they're jerks for not allowing it....don't like it? Go buy 4-500 acres and put up a sign that says anyone can come hunt on it and see what they deal with.

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Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:01 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
Right On OB1

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Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:10 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
It's not about some jerk not allowing it.

It's about being out in the middle of nowhere and having some JERK drive up and start intimidating, accusing, threatening.... doesn't happen often, but like this case it does happen. When that happens it's good to know YOUR STATE LAND USE LAWS.

Hunting, especially dove hunting, has been a HUGE part of Arizona history and culture. Just because there are more people now that live in the cities and don't hunt doesn't mean that's changed. Each State, each region, have their own culture and the local laws reflect that.

The original farmers were also in agreement over these issues. How do I know? Much of Buckeye was farmed by my cousins. I had been in every farmer's house in Mesa because I went to school with their kids and my uncle was a Zanherld for Salt River all of the 50s,60s,70s,80s. We had huge Quail hunting and fishing camps with the biggest farmers in Mesa. They weren't surprised every year by folks coming out to dove hunt on their property every September. As far as trash, yes there is always some, but the bigger trash problems aren't about hunters, it's the same as Creed's example, at anytime someone dumps their truck of trash out. They know the difference.

Why were they in agreement... doves are the bane of farmers, you think they like them buggers in their crops. Back in the day they grew a bunch of Maze and wheat, whitewings would blacken the sky and eat a huge portion of their profit, even today, dairies can have 25,000.00 in grain loses because of doves and pigeons. Ever wonder why they have those big tarped mounds with tires covering them, bird protection for grain. They wanted hunters to kill them birds.

Second, they don't want 300 people knocking on their door asking to hunt, would you. They aren't ignorant of the rules, they helped make them. If it's posted, stay out. They would post newly seeded or areas they didn't want disturbed. Other areas go ahead. It's a sane and workable process.

Tradition, it's who we are, the rules were established for all parties because it made sense.

If you don't like the tradition/laws, don't try to intimidate me out in the field, go to the legislature and have them changed.

If it's posted I will stay out.
If you ask me to stay out without trying to threaten or intimidate me I will leave immediately.
If you want to be a JERK, I can be a bigger one.

This is a land USE issue, there are laws dictating responsibilities of each party. There are also traditional access issues that both farmers and hunters abide by for convenience.

I don't know how else to explain it, if you don't like the law and traditions of my state, go to Colorado or Wyoming or wherever, where the laws are different.

Kent


Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:35 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
let me get this straight.....

Your dad is 70 but the 60 year old land owner is an "old guy".


:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's funny right there.

glad no one got hurt...or worse...arrested.


Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:20 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
Agreed. However, being a bigger jerk would not be my choice, especially when I am on property that does not belong to me. There are plenty of dead people who had the law on their side. I would suggest hunters/shooters use some common sense should a confrontation arise. Too much testosterone without common sense can get you killed.

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Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:24 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
Driving down the road can get you killed, there's laws to protect you but that's not reality.

If all anyone gets out of my post is I've stood up against unreasonable attitudes a couple times in my hunting exploits, never from the actual land owner, I guess I'm wasting my time again. I've been in many more of confrontations on jobsites that are much more dangerous, dealing with drugged up boozers that were just complete idiots, threatened with all sorts of lethal implements. I've never had a problem standing up for what is right if someone is UNREASONABLE in their attitude where ever, I'm an extremely reasonable person but can be stubborn when pushed.

All there truly is in life is how we treat each other. I don't abide a liar, thief, bully, and will say it out loud to their face when confronted, I will seldom seek them out. If I would have to protect my life after... they better make sure they can take it from me.

Kent


Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:15 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
My posts represent real history and attitude from those involved on both sides and the reality of law and each sides rights and responsibilities. It's the result of compromise of our forefathers for the benefit of everyone, written in law for the future.

The argument against it is conjecture on what might happen and some precieved land ownership rights that don't exist in the State of Arizona.

I see much of our forefathers wisdom considered outdated, Nationally and Locally.... Why? I believe they were right, all the way to Washington and Jefferson.

Kent


Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:35 am
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Post Re: Property owner hot head
OB1 wrote:
Creed, I have and had no use for a lazy cop/deputy and if I had been his Sgt and known I would have fired his azz up, there's no excuse for poor customer service when thats what we pay for.

Guys, I don't give a hoot about what the ARS says, the statute is written that way to insure the person can be prosecuted and convicted, its not an open door policy for hunters...this isnt a matter of what a court of law will decide, this is what a court of common decency decides and how it relfects on us as hunters......the bottom line is you and I all know when we're going onto someone's farm as opposed to BLM or USFS or state lands...regardless of what the statute says they will prosecute, the land doesn't belong to you and you have a moral obligation to ask permission to be on someone elses property that they pay for to farm, that they pay the taxes on and that they pay to clean up. God only knows how many farmers I had complaining about empty hulls, wings and beer cans and bottles left after opening day. You have no idea how many times I've been called out and found the do not tresspass signs shot up and thrown into the fields or ditches...it aint about "he didn't post it, he didn't post it" its about respect and showing that we as hunters can do the right and moral thing and ask first. Again, all you guys seem to be echoing is that it's your right to go onto someone else's property anytime you want and they're jerks for not allowing it....don't like it? Go buy 4-500 acres and put up a sign that says anyone can come hunt on it and see what they deal with.


+1

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Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:09 pm
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